Next steps for GNU Classpath

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Next steps for GNU Classpath

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
Hello all,

I'm going back to this question that Andrew asked a few days ago:

2014-09-04 22:15 GMT+02:00 Andrew Haley <[hidden email]>:
> Everyone: let's have a proper discussion.  Is there something we can
> do with GNU Classpath that takes it further forward.  And, if so,
> what?  What would our goals be?

The following is my opinion only:

Now that we have OpenJDK, most Java users will use that on "standard"
environments such as desktop boxes. I would say that there is one
distinct advantage of Classpath over OpenJDK, which is its smaller
size and footprint. This makes it an excellent choice for embedded
systems, where OpenJDK is probably too big, and full of features that
are not always useful in an embedded environment.

I think Classpath has an important opportunity in the embedded world
as a "low-fat" class library for embedded JVMs.

Best,

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
[hidden email]
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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Bill Chatfield
OpenJDK is Linux-only. It does not work on Windows. This defeats the purpose of Java of being cross-platform. You might say that Windows has Oracle's Java, but it is not GPLed. It cannot be redistributed or bundled with an app. It is huge and copyrighted. When you install it, it tries to screw you over by installing the Ask Toolbar. These are problems that GCJ does not have.

GCJ & GNU Classpath are truly cross-platform, in the original spirit of Java. They have the correct copyright (GPL/LGPL) and they are redistributable/bundable with an app. As a Java developer who would like to distribute apps to users, GCJ & GNU Classpath have significant advantages over OpenJDK/Oracle.

I am not interested in switching to Java "killers" (aka Java ripoffs) like Google Go, Vala, etc, that just change the syntax enough to be annoying. I want Java.


--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 9/15/14, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Next steps for GNU Classpath
 To: "Andrew Haley" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Monday, September 15, 2014, 3:34 AM
 
 Hello all,
 
 I'm going back to this question that Andrew asked a few days
 ago:
 
 2014-09-04 22:15 GMT+02:00 Andrew Haley <[hidden email]>:
 > Everyone: let's have a proper discussion.  Is
 there something we can
 > do with GNU Classpath that takes it further
 forward.  And, if so,
 > what?  What would our goals be?
 
 The following is my opinion only:
 
 Now that we have OpenJDK, most Java users will use that on
 "standard"
 environments such as desktop boxes. I would say that there
 is one
 distinct advantage of Classpath over OpenJDK, which is its
 smaller
 size and footprint. This makes it an excellent choice for
 embedded
 systems, where OpenJDK is probably too big, and full of
 features that
 are not always useful in an embedded environment.
 
 I think Classpath has an important opportunity in the
 embedded world
 as a "low-fat" class library for embedded JVMs.
 
 Best,
 
 Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
 [hidden email]

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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Andrew Haley
On 09/16/2014 04:47 PM, Bill Chatfield wrote:
> OpenJDK is Linux-only. It does not work on Windows.

Huh?  Since when?

Andrew.

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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
In reply to this post by Bill Chatfield
Hi Bill,

2014-09-16 17:47 GMT+02:00 Bill Chatfield <[hidden email]>:
> OpenJDK is Linux-only. It does not work on Windows. This defeats the purpose of Java of being cross-platform. You might say that Windows has Oracle's Java, but it is not GPLed. It cannot be redistributed or bundled with an app. It is huge and copyrighted. When you install it, it tries to screw you over by installing the Ask Toolbar. These are problems that GCJ does not have.

Just came across this which may address some of these concerns:

http://www.azulsystems.com/products/zulu

--
Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
[hidden email]
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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Fernando Lozano-4
In reply to this post by Andrew Haley
Hi Andrew,

>> OpenJDK is Linux-only. It does not work on Windows.
>
> Huh? Since when?


AFAIK OpenJDK project at java.net does not provides updated windows
binaries. You'd have to compile yourself. They provide the RI, frozen in
time of the java 7 spec approval, with no updates since them. :-(

Oracle binaries use proprietary blobs, so they are not a free openjdk
build like the one we get as part of fedora and other linux distros. :-(

Years ago there was a group of postgresql developers provinding openjdk
binaries for windows as part of openscg, but they stopped, never
provindig openjdk 7 builds. I guess zulu is filling this gap.

Other source for openjdk binaries for windows is:

https://github.com/alexkasko/openjdk-unofficial-builds

Those look like they are still mantained, but I don't know if they have
the proprietary blobs.



[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Andrew Haley
Hi,

On 09/16/2014 07:29 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>>> OpenJDK is Linux-only. It does not work on Windows.
>>
>> Huh? Since when?
>
> AFAIK OpenJDK project at java.net does not provides updated windows
> binaries. You'd have to compile yourself.

If he'd said that OpenJDK doesn't provide binaries for Windows I'd
have agreed.

GCJ doesn't provide binaries either.

Andrew.

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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Fernando Lozano-4
Hi Andrew,

> If he'd said that OpenJDK doesn't provide binaries for Windows I'd
> have agreed.
>
> GCJ doesn't provide binaries either.

Cygwin and Mingw used to provide CGJ binaries for Windows.

But I have not followed them during the last few years to know if they
are still usable. :-(


[]s, Fernando Lozano

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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

gnu_andrew
In reply to this post by Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
On 16 September 2014 17:01, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> 2014-09-16 17:47 GMT+02:00 Bill Chatfield <[hidden email]>:
>> OpenJDK is Linux-only. It does not work on Windows. This defeats the purpose of Java of being cross-platform. You might say that Windows has Oracle's Java, but it is not GPLed. It cannot be redistributed or bundled with an app. It is huge and copyrighted. When you install it, it tries to screw you over by installing the Ask Toolbar. These are problems that GCJ does not have.
>
> Just came across this which may address some of these concerns:
>
> http://www.azulsystems.com/products/zulu
>
> --
> Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
> [hidden email]

That's an interesting site I haven't seen before. It claims to offer
OpenJDK 6 u42, u47, u49 and u53. However, there is no such thing.
--
Andii :-)
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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Bill Chatfield
I went looking for Zulu's source code. It should available since OpenJDK is GPLed. But they do not provide it unless you request it and then it looks like they only provide the parts that were based on GPL code, which implies that there is more code to their product that they aren't going to provide. That seems to violate the spirit of the GPL.

This is their readme.txt:

 Certain portions of this software are based on source code from OpenJDK
(http://openjdk.java.net/)  and  licensed  under  the GNU General Public
License  version  2  (GPLv2)  with   the  Classpath  Exception  (http://
openjdk.java.net/legal/gplv2+ce.html).  For a period of three years from
the date  of your receipt  of  this  software,  Azul  will  provide upon
request, a complete  machine readable  copy of the  source code for such
portions  based  on  OpenJDK on a medium  customarily used  for software
interchange for a charge no more  than the cost of physically performing
source distribution.


  Please email [hidden email] for further information.

  Include this version code in your email:
  Zulu 8.3.0.1 cc8d4b0a1963


--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 9/16/14, Andïï <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath
 To: "Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia" <[hidden email]>
 Cc: "Bill Chatfield" <[hidden email]>, "Andrew Haley" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2014, 3:56 PM
 
 On 16 September 2014
 17:01, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
 <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 > Hi Bill,
 >
 > 2014-09-16 17:47 GMT+02:00 Bill Chatfield
 <[hidden email]>:
 >> OpenJDK is Linux-only. It does not
 work on Windows. This defeats the purpose of Java of being
 cross-platform. You might say that Windows has Oracle's
 Java, but it is not GPLed. It cannot be redistributed or
 bundled with an app. It is huge and copyrighted. When you
 install it, it tries to screw you over by installing the Ask
 Toolbar. These are problems that GCJ does not have.
 >
 > Just came across this
 which may address some of these concerns:
 >
 > http://www.azulsystems.com/products/zulu
 >
 > --
 > Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
 > [hidden email]
 
 That's an interesting site
 I haven't seen before. It claims to offer
 OpenJDK 6 u42, u47, u49 and u53. However, there
 is no such thing.
 --
 Andii
 :-)
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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Andrew Haley
On 16/09/14 22:04, Bill Chatfield wrote:

> I went looking for Zulu's source code. It should available since
> OpenJDK is GPLed. But they do not provide it unless you request it
> and then it looks like they only provide the parts that were based
> on GPL code, which implies that there is more code to their product
> that they aren't going to provide.

As I understand it, they're supporting an unaltered version of
OpenJDK.  But I do not speak for Azul.

Thus is really off-topic for this list, BTW.  We should continue this
on [hidden email] if necessary.

Andrew.
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Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath

Bill Chatfield
In reply to this post by Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia
Not all of it.

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 9/16/14, Guillermo Rodriguez Garcia <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Next steps for GNU Classpath
 To: "Bill Chatfield" <[hidden email]>
 Cc: "Andïï" <[hidden email]>, "Andrew Haley" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2014, 5:43 PM
 
 Hi Bill,
 
 El martes, 16 de septiembre de
 2014, Bill Chatfield <[hidden email]>
 escribió:
 I went
 looking for Zulu's source code. It should available
 since OpenJDK is GPLed. 
 Isn't it included in the
 download?
 Guillermo
 
 --
 Guillermo Rodriguez
 Garcia
 [hidden email]